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Re: New Letter from Tolkien found between books
Thain
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Just a quick note, I am going to continue the current embedded thread concerning the "member forum" somewhere else, just so it doesn't get too confusing here.

Thanks W&C and Beren for the enlivening discussion! I can see both sides, and have no opinion myself. I can't wait to hear if one or the other of you change your minds based on the evidence shared between you, but don't have any expectation that there is enough of a preponderance to effectively "answer" the question at hand.

Posted on: 2010/2/8 11:24
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Re: Should TCG formally join other organizations?
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I am aware that my opinion counts for nothing. This is my sixth post, and the last five are of no importance. I do however often read what is being posted and find the opinions expressed, and the info shared, very interesting. I plan to start participating more, just need to find the time.
If anything, I think the Tolkien Collector's Guide should become a Smial of The Tolkien Society. If for nothing else it has an official air to it. However I think TCG would be best kept as it is.
To the close community of members of this site it may not mean anything either way, although from my position the independentness of this site is somewhat attractive. If anything I think this site has the ability to further evolve and become something that is on the list to become involved with, next to The Tolkien Society, and The Mythopoeic Society; although it would be a shame to lose the intimacy that the TCG has. Of course for this to happen people like me would have to put there arse into gear and become involved.

Just my opinion.

Posted on: 2010/2/8 8:52


Re: New Letter from Tolkien found between books
Home away from home
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But I believe it is mainly caused because of the many 'fakes' that are being thrown on the market almost on a weekly basis.

We weren't aware that fakes were showing up that frequently. It would be useful to note them on this site as they come to your attention.

I came to the conclusion that at that time Tolkien did use his fountain pen in almost all occasions where he wanted to sign 'personal' letters and books.

Almost all, yes, but not all. We would not, anyway, consider the letter to the Fourth Class necessarily 'personal' but part of the business of being a popular author.

I hope soon to find all the elements I see consistently repeated in these secretary signed letters on for example a handwritten book or a handwritten letter.

By 'secretary signed letters' we assume that you mean signed letters typed by a secretary, as it is not yet proven that any secretary signed any of Tolkien's letters. And again, you can't expect consistency when circumstances constantly change. Tolkien had written to Rayner Unwin on 28 May 1964 that arthritis was affecting him more and more; this didn't prevent him from handwriting letters with his fountain pen, but one has to take into account that a square-nibbed pen requires finer control than a ballpoint pen and can be more tiring to the hand. Also, Tolkien may have been more willing to use his fountain pen when there only one letter to sign than when there were several and his secretary was waiting to fold and post them. (Ballpoint/biro of course doesn't need much time to dry.)

Up to the moment I do, I believe I need to keep the theory open and the more I put these early secretary letters next to each other (and see these are 'remarkable' consistent) it either means Tolkien used two distinctive different autographs in the same period (a fast and a more carefully (or personal) one) or when I see other 'fast' signatures from the same period which are in fact much closer to his 'early flowing' signature there was in fact a time when some secretary copied his autograph.

In this you should be careful not to find consistency or pattern because you expect to find consistency or pattern.

I'll leave it open for now and don't feel like that it would be a good idea to start posting examples here (because I'm afraid of getting more fakes), but it might be a good idea if for example I could one day 'show' Christina & Wayne why this thought is growing on me.

As an alternative to posting scans here, you could give a list of examples of letters with ballpoint signatures which we could compare against our own file and information about Tolkien's several secretaries. Of the over 200 examples you've seen, which you believe to have been both signed and typed by a secretary, how many appear in each year? What are the earliest and latest examples? Which are the best examples in between? Any data of this sort could be useful.

Wayne & Christina

Posted on: 2010/2/8 6:09


Re: New Letter from Tolkien found between books
Shirrif
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Beren wrote:
... I'll leave it open for now and don't feel like that it would be a good idea to start posting examples here (because I'm afraid of getting more fakes), but it might be a good idea if for example I could one day 'show' Christina & Wayne why this thought is growing on me.


You can post these examples in the Members Forums which are only accessible by Members of the Forum, not people who have not logged in or just registered users, Wayne and Christina are Members so would be able to see your examples.

Posted on: 2010/2/8 3:20


Re: New Letter from Tolkien found between books
Home away from home
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Thanks Christina & Wayne,

This is indeed correct - I'm trying to find consistencies in something very inconsistent. But I believe it is mainly caused because of the many 'fakes' that are being thrown on the market almost on a weekly basis. It took me a big step forward when I realized that secretary letters existed at a very early period; especially since I was not expecting them. Then I took over a hundred signatures from this period and indeed was trying to see if there was anything consistent. I came to the conclusion that at that time Tolkien did use his fountain pen in almost all occasions where he wanted to sign 'personal' letters and books. At this period this signature is actually very consistent and has taking up the form what I call his 'early flowing' signature. Then there are the ballpoint signatures, which are coming into play and typed letters (especially like this one) as well. I know exactly the implication of my claim and it is never good to come out with a theory when there are still elements around that proof the opposite - like you I know letters (hand-written) and books signed with a similar signature. Still, there are some elements that are in all cases different from the autograph shown here // I know it is not good to jump to conclusions too fast, but it is a thought that has been growing over some years now (and it feels completely incorrect, because I also have the feeling it is so un-Tolkien; if such a word exists) and to be honest I hope soon to find all the elements I see consistently repeated in these secretary signed letters on for example a handwritten book or a handwritten letter. Up to the moment I do, I believe I need to keep the theory open and the more I put these early secretary letters next to each other (and see these are 'remarkable' consistent) it either means Tolkien used two distinctive different autographs in the same period (a fast and a more carefully (or personal) one) or when I see other 'fast' signatures from the same period which are in fact much closer to his 'early flowing' signature there was in fact a time when some secretary copied his autograph. I'll leave it open for now and don't feel like that it would be a good idea to start posting examples here (because I'm afraid of getting more fakes), but it might be a good idea if for example I could one day 'show' Christina & Wayne why this thought is growing on me.

Posted on: 2010/2/8 2:07



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