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25 Feb, 2009
2009-2-25 1:41:06 AM UTC
I totally agree with you (Rowns). To be honest, I don't think I will even bother with buying a copy up front to get an early number. If they do release 500 copies, there is no way on earth that they will sell them without a very deep discount, so why throw money upfront at HC needlessly? Makes more sense to wait a year and get 30-40% off.

The only reason why CoH has sold (perhaps) two-thirds or so of the print-run is that we - as a small group of collectors - have purchased multiple copies in the crazy belief that some powerful marketplace for them (that clearly doesn't exist at present) will spring into existence and give us a huge return. We actually only have ourselves to blame, really. Who do we think is ever going to buy this huge reserve of second copies off us?

If HC do release this as 500 copy edition, I personally see taking a stand on this book (by not purchasing it) as sending a message to HC that they need to treat their core customer base rather better than they have thus far.

Stu
25 Feb, 2009
2009-2-25 5:49:49 AM UTC
I seem to remember an article somewhere with David Brawn, where he was asked why HarperCollins had not issued a Deluxe (not Super-Deluxe) edition of Unfinished Tales. They did not think there was a big enough market for the book.

In the case of the new book, I agree with Stu in that people bought multiple copies of COH as investments, which turned out to be very poor investments because of the discounting that they did.

Collectors and dealers are not going to do the same thing with this new book, people will be very wary about buying multiple copies, or even single copies at full price.

If Unfinished Tales is not right for a Deluxe edition (I disagree and think it is) then this is not the right title for a Super-Deluxe Edition, they should have just done a Trade and Deluxe.
25 Feb, 2009
2009-2-25 2:43:10 PM UTC
"The only reason why CoH has sold (perhaps) two-thirds or so of the print-run is that we - as a small group of collectors - have purchased multiple copies in the crazy belief that some powerful marketplace for them (that clearly doesn't exist at present) will spring into existence and give us a huge return. We actually only have ourselves to blame, really. Who do we think is ever going to buy this huge reserve of second copies off us?

If HC do release this as 500 copy edition, I personally see taking a stand on this book (by not purchasing it) as sending a message to HC that they need to treat their core customer base rather better than they have thus far."


- you suppose that HC want to sell multiple copies of their books to folk who wait until they can get a heavily discounted price, and then sell on for a huge return? This is HC's core customer base?

In my early days of collecting, I bought books simply because I wanted them. Later, I tried buying to sell later on, but it never worked for me. Now, I don't trouble myself with resale values. I buy the books because I want to collect them.
25 Feb, 2009
2009-2-25 7:16:54 PM UTC
In my early days of collecting, I bought books simply because I wanted them. Later, I tried buying to sell later on, but it never worked for me. Now, I don't trouble myself with resale values. I buy the books because I want to collect them.
But when do you buy, when they discount by 10%, 20%, 30%, 40% ....... 80% because the book does not sell? The number of the book only matters if you are interested in resale value. I'd be very happy to have a book for my collection, not resale, at an enormous discount.
25 Feb, 2009
2009-2-25 8:20:22 PM UTC
(Garm) wrote "you suppose that HC want to sell multiple copies of their books to folk who wait until they can get a heavily discounted price, and then sell on for a huge return? This is HC's core customer base?"

No, they want to sell multiple copies up-front *undiscounted* to people who think they can sell on for a huge return. This absolutely was their core customer base for the SD CoH, and HC exploited this by raising the price of CoH at the last minute (to GBP 350) and then they went through the 10%, 20%, 30% discount phase once the customers at that price had dried up. More recently, they appear to have sold a large number to a reseller for discounted sale.

This all makes sense from a perspective of HC making money from that one book, but not in the long term, because the fan base is very small.

However, I don't believe that customer behaviour will be the same for the new book. I think the sensible ones among us might just buy a single copy of the book at a sensible price because we want a copy for ourselves. In this case, buying later on at a discount makes the best sense.

Stu
25 Feb, 2009
2009-2-25 9:54:32 PM UTC
Does anyone (maybe Beren) have information regarding whether this will be available to U.S customers right out of the gate, or will I have to wait several months as was the case with the signed deluxe CoH?

On another note, I understand what people are saying with regard to HC not providing the best customer experience. I have had numerous emails ignored and have not always been pleased with them myself. It does indeed make sense to wait for deep discounts (30-40% off) and then purchase one copy for yourself. However, I must admit that I am a sucker, and I will likely purchase my copy for full price when it is released. After all, I will make up for spending the extra cash with the profit from selling one of my spare copies of the signed deluxe Children of Hurin!
2 Mar, 2009
2009-3-2 1:26:17 PM UTC
I agree with much of what has been said; but this subject seems to strike at the very heart of what collecting is for many collectors -in this case collectors of Tolkien.

I guess HarperCollins believe (and rightly so) that there must be collectors of Modern First Editions (and Modern 20th century authors generally) who would wish to acquire a Super De Luxe signed book like CoH. But surprisingly, the market for this kind of book looks extremely small judging by the reasonable difficulty they have had shifting 500 copies over a period of nearly two years now.

Sales have been driven (because of the method of distribution) by collectors, and not the book trade itself. In a way it has been (I guess) an educational process for the publishers, as they have been given a clear indication of what actual demand there is for these types of books. Let's hope lessons have been learnt and the print run, for this undoubtedly less mass appealing title, is lower.

Having said all this, it's interesting quite how many collectors bought multiple copies of CoH. I didn't, but that's only because I did not have the money to do so. You can't get away from the fundamental fact that money (price, value, trade, resale etc) plays a central role in collecting: whether it's searching for value for money; finding that rare book at a car boot sale for pennies (getting that 'bargain'); owning a book that cost money; having a book few others have etcetera.

I disagree with the thinking that says if you don't care about resale & value, then you should not care about what number you receive. Why? I have no intention of selling any book anytime soon. But the number is of interest and appeal; and the thought of resale value is of interest also. Book collectors love the idea that they bought a book for blah amount of money, and now it's worth double that. It's just that little bit more expensive to care about these kind of details.

Another point that Rowns raises (or at least alludes to) is: why not just ignore the initial clamour, and pick up a copy at a later date; either discounted, or even on the second hand market. It won't cost you any more money.

I can't imagine the 1998 De Luxe Silmarillion sold terribly quickly; maybe someone can correct me on that. But now, regardless of demand, you cannot pick up a copy for less that ~£400. This seems (to me) inflated. But it hardly stops the trade listing the books at this price.

Having said all this, for all the trumpeting about buying multiple copies and not buying for resale: all of us have bought a book that we have no intention of physically reading. So we're all nuts!...

BH
4 Mar, 2009
2009-3-4 6:42:49 PM UTC
Khamul said
all of us have bought a book that we have no intention of physically reading. So we're all nuts!...

Can't agree more! And I love being nuts. Well, at least "Tolkien nuts". Those people who collect other books really are nuts.

Khamul also said
Another point that Rowns raises (or at least alludes to) is: why not just ignore the initial clamour, and pick up a copy at a later date; either discounted, or even on the second hand market. It won't cost you any more money.

For this, I would like to clarify that I am specifically talking about S&G if it is released at 500 copies. And, to be completely honest, even S&G will be selling on the second hand market at a premium (i.e. above list price) somewhere down the road - it will be a stunning book as far as construction, the content will be good, and it will be signed by a highly desirable author - it just may take a few (or many) years to find 501 people who want to own one long term. Plus a few will be lost to damage or postal gremlins.
20 May, 2009
2009-5-20 9:01:15 AM UTC
Well, the Super Deluxe Sigurd is now shown as available for sale. Too bad the website is rejecting me due to:

"Sorry, the following products are not available to be bought from and/or shipped to the country you have specified"

I really was under the impression that this was to be made available to the US right away. I am not sure why I thought that, but it looks like I will have to wait to get one. I am hoping that it is simply because I have to wait until I receive my 'go ahead' email from HC before it will allow me to purchase, but somehow I doubt it. Once again, another great Harper Collins website experience!
20 May, 2009
2009-5-20 9:20:41 AM UTC
Here is why I was under that impression:

From the Harper Collins Update thread.....

(Rowns)

David Brawn has gotten back to me with some answers to questions I asked (mostly based on questions posed here in the forums or in private emails to me). I thought I would summarize here as well as tracking down all the threads and posting snippets all over the forums.

Sigurd and Gudrun Super Deluxe will be available to ship to the USA at the same time as the rest of the world, now that HC and Houghton Mifflin have an arrangement in place. Only the Super Deluxe editions are covered, though, so other titles/specials from tolkien.co.uk are still not allowed to ship to the USA.
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