Thanks Wayne for joining in and giving your thoughtful reply. We seem to be on the same line for the ebay signature...

But for the notes (abebooks items) I believe them to be genuine.
First of all, it is not atypical for Tolkien to write down or type down the sentence and sign it. I have now found multiple cases where Tolkien did exactly that. The most famous example is the card currently up for sale at Magss (here: http://www.maggs.com/title/AU4228.asp)

Have a look at this:



You are exactly right about Tolkien being invariably around that time, but I have seen these items before and I have actually held them in my hands. Knowing where they come from and having seen the autographs up close I am almost certain these items are genuine. Originally they were in a signed book, with a handwritten letter and the note and the type letter signed (lacking the top) were together. They belonged to a friend who lived very close the Miramar and frequently visited Tolkien when he was at the hotel.

I can't tell why the typewriting does noet look Tolkien's... but you are correct there. But having seen book, handwritten letter together with these notes (all having the same blue pen autograph) I believe them to be genuine. Still, if I am correct, the note about Priscilla typing out parts of the manuscript might be a very interesting fact, not known before!

Thanks Wayne an Christina,

I'm happy for this very good answer. It is indeed easy to be mislead when looking at Tolkien signed notes. In fact, when I saw them, and was offered to buy them (much cheaper then they are listed at abe) I was very much tempted, but I did not buy them.

Typed notes are always tricky and when you spent your money on them you want to be sure that, if you ever need to re-sell them you want to be able to have good provenance. Or at least that they have something like a date, a known letter-head or something to back up the authenticity.

I did not find anything on these torn sheets that would be a good enough proof for them to be genuine. Together with the signed book and the handwritten letter, it would have been a good extra, but once you see them on theirselves, they become very tricky indeed.

Still, having seen them up close I believe them to be genuine. But you are right about "Gandor" and the other mistakes, it was something that I did not like to see.

While the autographs, when compared to other signatures from the same period look fine to me, put together with all the red flags you mention here, I'm very happy I did not buy them.

Thanks for pointing out the note on Priscilla typing out the chapters, I just did lent a copy of the Tolkien Family Album from Johan Vanhecke. For one or another reason I have bid on that book on ebay for about 50 or more times, but never won it. I have finally bought it now from someone over here in Belgium, but it has not arrived yet.

I should have checked chronology, but did not find it at first glance.

This has certainly been an interesting discussion. It illustrates how important provenance is and how difficult it can be verifying a signature for collectors without provenance.

It is certainly a worry when considering not only the money that is involved with buying an item of this sort and after following this discussion my opinion has been swayed by arguements for and against.

My other concern is that if even one of these items (or others) is a fake, it may enter into the field of Tolkien Studies as genuine and its contents misleading us.

Thankfully we do have people who have a lot of experence with Tolkien's documents who are willing to offer their advice.
Thanks

Dior

I also have loved this spirited discussion!

And I must say, when Beren said this

I should have checked chronology, but did not find it at first glance.

I had this mental picture of him wandering around his library, looking for the book amongst the shelves...

(Yes, I know what you were really saying Beren, but I still wanted to share. )

I should have checked chronology, but did not find it at first glance.

I had this mental picture of him wandering around his library, looking for the book amongst the shelves...

(Yes, I know what you were really saying Beren, but I still wanted to share. )

I had exactly the same picture as Rowns (it could easily happen in Beren's library!), even when knowing, like Rowns, that Beren meant something else.

This has been a fascinating conversation - and all starting from a simple question!

wellinghall

To take this discussion further, another example of evidently the same questionable typewriting as the pieces on abebooks, with a variant of the same signature, and again only (as it appears) part of a letter, has been listed for sale at auction on 16 October; see http://www.bloomsburyauctions.com/detail/664/246.0. The same lot is also on eBay. This piece is clearly made up of extracts, occasionally with slight twists, from Tolkien's (autograph) letter to Jennifer Paxman of 26 September 1947, most recently sold by Maggs Bros. Its text is still available at http://www.maggs.com/title/AU4148.asp. Since it seems inconceivable that Tolkien either typed (and signed as if for transmittal) a variant of his letter to Miss Paxman before writing a fuller version in manuscript, or wrote (and typed with atypical clumsiness) nearly the same words to someone else who would be personally familiar with "Aunt Jane", the authenticity of the new item has to be called into question.

(Jennifer Paxman is the daughter of Colin Brookes-Smith, whose family had a close relationship with Tolkien's Aunt Jane Neave. Tolkien signed his letters to her "Ronald Tolkien" or "Uncle Ronald".)

Wayne

One might also form the impression that the shorter item on abebooks (the 'Earendel-sentence') bears the same relation to the Maggs description of the Levinson card as the Bloomsbury item does to the Paxman letter ...

I would also submit that the occurrence in the typed "version" of "moon-lather", taken litteratim from the Maggs Bros. transcript, proves that the typed letter is a fraud. "Moon-lather" must be a misreading (by the Maggs transcriber) of "moon-letter" (those familiar with Tolkien's handwriting will not be surprised that someone unfamiliar with it or with _The Hobbit_ would make this mistake), and is certainly not something would ever _type_. (Not to mention all the other typos: Tolkien would _never_ have left so many uncorrected errors in a sent letter.)

Carl