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Jul 6
2022/7/6 21:43:26 (GMT) Greenwich Mean Time, London, Dublin, Lisbon, Casablanca, Monrovia
Not saying he shouldn't be mentioned (that's an oversight), but what do people expect writers to say about Kay's role? I believe Guy Kay has spoken publically about his role in helping Christopher with The Silmarillion once. There's that information to go on, the rest is speculation.
Jul 6
2022/7/6 21:49:26 (GMT) Greenwich Mean Time, London, Dublin, Lisbon, Casablanca, Monrovia

Khamûl wrote:

Not saying he shouldn't be mentioned (that's an oversight), but what do people expect writers to say about Kay's role? I believe Guy Kay has spoken publically about his role in helping Christopher with The Silmarillion once. There's that information to go on, the rest is speculation.

But Ferré is making the assertion that Christopher was co-authoring (rather than editing) certain sections, so the fact that a fiction writer was also involved in the Silmarillion would seem to be pertinent. Total failure to mention or address that fact seems remiss - it is like leaving something out because it doesn't fit the narrative.
Jul 6
2022/7/6 22:25:37 (GMT) Greenwich Mean Time, London, Dublin, Lisbon, Casablanca, Monrovia

Stu wrote:

Khamûl wrote:

Not saying he shouldn't be mentioned (that's an oversight), but what do people expect writers to say about Kay's role? I believe Guy Kay has spoken publically about his role in helping Christopher with The Silmarillion once. There's that information to go on, the rest is speculation.

But Ferré is making the assertion that Christopher was co-authoring (rather than editing) certain sections, so the fact that a fiction writer was also involved in the Silmarillion would seem to be pertinent. Total failure to mention or address that fact seems remiss - it is like leaving something out because it doesn't fit the narrative.

I Agree. I find it very odd that his name is not mentioned. If the piece is to be taken seriously in spite of a contributor being entirely ignored then we must assume that their role was simply making the coffee? Or assume that Ferré knows absolutely what Kay's contribution was and felt we didn't need to know?
Jul 7
2022/7/7 6:09:30 (GMT) Greenwich Mean Time, London, Dublin, Lisbon, Casablanca, Monrovia
Objectively, knowing the personality of Christopher Tolkien regarding the works of his father, do you really think the contribution of Kay is large enough to be mention ? I mean, ok, he is thanked by CT, but do you really think that he lets Kay make some important choices on the maybe most important work of his father that he was in charge of ?
Jul 7 (edited)
2022/7/7 6:33:00 (GMT) Greenwich Mean Time, London, Dublin, Lisbon, Casablanca, Monrovia

Druss wrote:

Objectively, knowing the personality of Christopher Tolkien regarding the works of his father, do you really think the contribution of Kay is large enough to be mention ? I mean, ok, he is thanked by CT, but do you really think that he lets Kay make some important choices on the maybe most important work of his father that he was in charge of ?

I don't know - I wasn't there. He clearly did something. And should be mentioned, even if to say "we don't think he had a major influence, because... [some evidence or basis]". To ignore the problem that Kay presents in determining exactly "who did what?" doesn't make the problem of "who did what?" go away.
Jul 7
2022/7/7 8:28:00 (GMT) Greenwich Mean Time, London, Dublin, Lisbon, Casablanca, Monrovia

Druss wrote:

Objectively, knowing the personality of Christopher Tolkien regarding the works of his father, do you really think the contribution of Kay is large enough to be mention ? I mean, ok, he is thanked by CT, but do you really think that he lets Kay make some important choices on the maybe most important work of his father that he was in charge of ?

As Stu says, "I don't know - I wasn't there. He clearly did something", and there is the problem, he did something, and an article that seeks to argue as it does needs to present all the evidence rather than leaving out one of the contributors to J.R.R. Tolkien's "most important" work. It makes the conclusions questionable because information was left out. Why was that information left out? Was it because he did nothing of any worth? Was it because it would detract from the argument being made? We don't know because we were not given all the facts.
Jul 7
2022/7/7 11:50:01 (GMT) Greenwich Mean Time, London, Dublin, Lisbon, Casablanca, Monrovia
Why you considered it's a so crucial information ? At the time, Kay wasn't a fiction writer yet, only a student under Christopher Tolkien' supervision; so what is so important in mentioning him in the context of this essay or for the Silmarillion writing ?
Jul 7
2022/7/7 12:01:51 (GMT) Greenwich Mean Time, London, Dublin, Lisbon, Casablanca, Monrovia

Druss wrote:

Why you considered it's a so crucial information ? At the time, Kay wasn't a fiction writer yet, only a student under Christopher Tolkien' supervision; so what is so important in mentioning him in the context of this essay or for the Silmarillion writing ?

I am going to turn that around on you because discussing a contributor's role should be obvious to anyone who seeks the truth of a thing. Why is it acceptable to you in the context of this article that a contributor be left out of the piece entirely?
Jul 7
2022/7/7 15:01:23 (GMT) Greenwich Mean Time, London, Dublin, Lisbon, Casablanca, Monrovia
Well, I just know what Kay says about it, that is he was only there to help Christopher Tolkien ; not to replace him in his role of editor of his father's works. The fact that Kay would become a fantasy writer long after must not be a reason to think that he played an extent part in the edition and the writing the Silmarillion 1977, even more when we all know how much Christopher Tolkien was protecting with the texts.
In fact, for me, that Kay became a fantasy writer tends to give people a reason to believe he had an active part in the Silmarillion, as if he already was a writer at the time, rather than considering his contribution as minime (I don't say non-existent) and negligible regarding the one of CT (the topic studied by Vincent Ferré, so), and that it was thank to this experience that Kay had the possibility/motivation/etc. to become the writer we know today.
Jul 7
2022/7/7 16:06:43 (GMT) Greenwich Mean Time, London, Dublin, Lisbon, Casablanca, Monrovia

Druss wrote:

Well, I just know what Kay says about it, that is he was only there to help Christopher Tolkien ; not to replace him in his role of editor of his father's works.

What little Kay has said sheds some interesting points. He says he worked for a year, either alone or with CT. A year, working away in secret. That hardly sounds like his role was minimal, even if it was as described to be sorting through papers. I am not, and have not suggested that Christopher is not the driving force. Kay says as much that he was the apprentice, but he is there for a year working in secret on this project between 74' and 75'.

Druss wrote:

The fact that Kay would become a fantasy writer long after must not be a reason to think that he played an extent part in the edition and the writing the Silmarillion 1977, even more when we all know how much Christopher Tolkien was protecting with the texts.

But it is also no reason to not, especially as we don't know for certain as he has been fairly stand-offish in clarifying exactly what his experience was. To be clear, I don't believe he had a larger role than CT, that would be ludicrous to suggest, but it has been said that it was Kay who suggested the single narative to CT. Is this true? Is there anything that could have been said? Well, we don't know because an article that could have asked these questions did not, it ignored the role (however small) and made no mention of him.

Druss wrote:

In fact, for me, that Kay became a fantasy writer tends to give people a reason to believe he had an active part in the Silmarillion, as if he already was a writer at the time, rather than considering his contribution as minime (I don't say non-existent) and negligible regarding the one of CT (the topic studied by Vincent Ferré, so), and that it was thank to this experience that Kay had the possibility/motivation/etc. to become the writer we know today.

One could look at this another way. After editing/crafting what is arguably one of the most talked about works in modern literature CT didn't become a fantasy writer, and GGK did.

I simply would have liked there to be something said about him and his role instead of the article saying nothing at all.
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