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HarperCollins UK profits double due to Tolkien TV deal with Amazon
HarperCollins UK profits double due to Tolkien TV deal with Amazon
Apr 7
https://www.theguardian.com/media/2019 ... collins-uk-profits-rights
The 200-year old book publisher said the Amazon rights deal had fuelled record profits of £24.9m for the year to the end of June 2018.
“However, the main driver was a one-off deal with Amazon, where in conjunction with Warner Bros and the Tolkien estate we sold the rights for a multi-series TV show to be shown on Amazon Prime based on the Lord of the Rings Appendices.”
The 200-year old book publisher said the Amazon rights deal had fuelled record profits of £24.9m for the year to the end of June 2018.
“However, the main driver was a one-off deal with Amazon, where in conjunction with Warner Bros and the Tolkien estate we sold the rights for a multi-series TV show to be shown on Amazon Prime based on the Lord of the Rings Appendices.”
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Thank you for the excellent and informative response!
That is certainly true when it comes to minor and largely circumstantial place-names or coast-lines but not for the actual design, shape and major geographical spots on Númenor.
The latter is a pretty huge addition that takes one well beyond the rights territory of the LoTR Appendices. For one, it isn't even part of 'Middle-Earth'.
I see no way that this could be legally published by the marketing team without Amazon having the rights to at least parts of Unfinished Tales, given that this is the only place (in the Description of Númenor chapter) where this could plausibly be lifted from.
Agreed, if the Númenóreans serve as the 'gateway' into the world of the Second Age, then we could be seeing a lot more of it than ever before outside published works. Their mariners in the Uienendili traversed the seas right down to the far south and east, well past Harad.
In LoTR, the narrative begins not with the High-Elves of Lothlorien and Rivendell, but with very human and relatable Hobbits living in a quintessentially British-style 'Shire': complete with village gossip, backbiting, class snobbery between the Bagginses and the 'uppity' Sackville-Bagginses etc.
Likewise, Game of Thrones begins with the Stark family - with the bastard son Jon Snow, the doting mother who has, nonetheless, never forgiven her husband's infidelity, the charming relationships between brothers and sisters in a land broadly similar to Scotland or Northern England.
This is done to draw the audience in to something vaguely more approachable, before the narrative expands significantly. Frodo, Bilbo and Sam are living rather normal lives in the Shire that we can all relate to, until they get caught up in the epic events of the War of the Ring.
Amazon, I think, will want to do the same with the Second Age and Númenor at the beginning is this pacific, isolationist maritime society that only hears distant rumours of a 'shadow' far away. Now, the Númenóreans are "super-men" but that's the point: they are still men, not a different species; merely homo sapiens with some biological augmentation. They retain all of our failings and desires, as can be seen from the painfully irreconcilable marriage between Aldarion and Erendis, or the greed of the colonialist Númenóreans for timber and labour.
Númenor provides the audience with more of a window in the Second Age, via their explorations, than would be the case for jumping straight into the Noldor Kingdom of Eregion.
Like you, I'm excited by the possibilities and can't help but speculate
Nothing else is public yet. It's been pointed out a few times in various threads here that inferring what rights they have from the maps themselves is highly speculative, as even in the New Line/Warner Brothers maps and movies some place names and other "leaks" occurred that technically they didn't have the rights to but were too small to do anything about.
That is certainly true when it comes to minor and largely circumstantial place-names or coast-lines but not for the actual design, shape and major geographical spots on Númenor.
The latter is a pretty huge addition that takes one well beyond the rights territory of the LoTR Appendices. For one, it isn't even part of 'Middle-Earth'.
I see no way that this could be legally published by the marketing team without Amazon having the rights to at least parts of Unfinished Tales, given that this is the only place (in the Description of Númenor chapter) where this could plausibly be lifted from.
Based on a few public quotes from Amazon people saying they want to make the next "Game of Thrones", I personally feel that the series will have a lot of complexity and a long list of leading characters.
Agreed, if the Númenóreans serve as the 'gateway' into the world of the Second Age, then we could be seeing a lot more of it than ever before outside published works. Their mariners in the Uienendili traversed the seas right down to the far south and east, well past Harad.
In LoTR, the narrative begins not with the High-Elves of Lothlorien and Rivendell, but with very human and relatable Hobbits living in a quintessentially British-style 'Shire': complete with village gossip, backbiting, class snobbery between the Bagginses and the 'uppity' Sackville-Bagginses etc.
Likewise, Game of Thrones begins with the Stark family - with the bastard son Jon Snow, the doting mother who has, nonetheless, never forgiven her husband's infidelity, the charming relationships between brothers and sisters in a land broadly similar to Scotland or Northern England.
This is done to draw the audience in to something vaguely more approachable, before the narrative expands significantly. Frodo, Bilbo and Sam are living rather normal lives in the Shire that we can all relate to, until they get caught up in the epic events of the War of the Ring.
Amazon, I think, will want to do the same with the Second Age and Númenor at the beginning is this pacific, isolationist maritime society that only hears distant rumours of a 'shadow' far away. Now, the Númenóreans are "super-men" but that's the point: they are still men, not a different species; merely homo sapiens with some biological augmentation. They retain all of our failings and desires, as can be seen from the painfully irreconcilable marriage between Aldarion and Erendis, or the greed of the colonialist Númenóreans for timber and labour.
Númenor provides the audience with more of a window in the Second Age, via their explorations, than would be the case for jumping straight into the Noldor Kingdom of Eregion.
Like you, I'm excited by the possibilities and can't help but speculate
Althoun wrote:
The latter is a pretty huge addition that takes one well beyond the rights territory of the LoTR Appendices. For one, it isn't even part of 'Middle-Earth'.
I see no way that this could be legally published by the marketing team without Amazon having the rights to at least parts of Unfinished Tales, given that this is the only place (in the Description of Númenor chapter) where this could plausibly be lifted from.
No disagreement here. Clearly Amazon has more than what the movie studios did, as far as materiel they can work with. Exactly what materiel they are allowed to work with is unknown (to me or anyone else outside of those dungeons Amazon has the poor script writers trapped in).
Likewise, Game of Thrones begins with the Stark family - with the bastard son Jon Snow, the doting mother who has, nonetheless, never forgiven her husband's infidelity, the charming relationships between brothers and sisters in a land broadly similar to Scotland or Northern England.
Her husband's implied infidelity (not her mistake, he lied).
[Do I need to put spoilers for non-Tolkien works here?] Like you, I'm excited by the possibilities and can't help but speculate
Her husband's implied infidelity (not her mistake, he lied). [Do I need to put spoilers for non-Tolkien works here?]
Yes, indeed.
I was trying to be as 'unspoilery' as possible, just in the off (and admittedly small) chance that anyone did happen to read the thread who hadn't yet read the ASoIAF books or seen the TV series.No disagreement here. Clearly Amazon has more than what the movie studios did, as far as materiel they can work with. Exactly what materiel they are allowed to work with is unknown (to me or anyone else outside of those dungeons Amazon has the poor script writers trapped in).
Yup, that's exactly where things sit at present!
That is certainly true when it comes to minor and largely circumstantial place-names or coast-lines but not for the actual design, shape and major geographical spots on Númenor.
I feel this is the case with Tol Morwen too which is only mentioned in The Silmarillion, The Shaping of Middle-earth, The War of the Jewels, and Fonstad's atlas. It is such a specific thing to place on the map that I can't see it being for no reason.
My personal opinion on Tol Morwen is that (a) they needed to fit Númenor on the map, (b) the map is rectangular, so therefore the northwest region will be visible on it, and (c) people would FREAK OUT if the island was left off the Amazon map, even though it likely has nothing to do with the Amazon storyline.
Just IMHO, of course. I think we (the fans) are putting way more thought into the maps than Amazon is, in certain regards.
With that in mind, here is a quote from Michael Benson, Amazon Studios' Head of Marketing from a BusinessInsider interview a few weeks ago:
Just IMHO, of course. I think we (the fans) are putting way more thought into the maps than Amazon is, in certain regards.
With that in mind, here is a quote from Michael Benson, Amazon Studios' Head of Marketing from a BusinessInsider interview a few weeks ago:
I foresee "Lord of the Rings" as being probably one of the biggest investments we'll make in marketing. It is a lot of fun to market a show like that, but it's also really challenging because you could easily do something that might be a misstep. About four weeks ago, we opened up our social handles "@LOTRonPrime" and we began to reveal what we were doing for the series. And through a reveal of a series of maps, we told the audience and the fans that were going to be going into the second age. There's a lot more to come, but everything that we're doing to market "Lord of the Rings," we want to make sure that we maintain the authenticity that the fans expect.
With regards to Tol Morwen, I don't believe fans would have noticed it not being there, most anyway. After all, it is not on any official map produced by a Tolkien, is mentioned once in the main body of text in The Silmarillion and twice in The History of Middle-earth.
You clearly know more than you can say but I personally think its naming and inclusion on the map is significant.
You clearly know more than you can say but I personally think its naming and inclusion on the map is significant.
It seems plain to me that whoever came up with the map and its "reveal" relied heavily on Fonstad's Atlas, not on the legendarium itself. I can only say again that I sure hope Fonstad's estate/family has been duly compensated.
I think (personal opinion only) that you are connecting dots that are pretty far apart. There are a lot of errors in Fonstad's Atlas that the Amazon cartographer did not propagate, and there are errors in the Amazon map that Fonstad gets correct.
Since Tol Morwen is the topic at hand, I took a look in Fonstad (2nd edition):
* p 38 - placement is ok (the structure of Beleriand is shown in shadow under the water, so you can see it essentially aligns with where the Stone of the Hapless was located)
* p 41 ok - pretty much reflects the same geography as p. 38
* p 52 - Tol Morwen is much too far south
I think everyone is working off the same base legendarium and thus there are obviously a lot of similarities, but I don't think there is firm connection (other than the erstwhile compass rose )
Since Tol Morwen is the topic at hand, I took a look in Fonstad (2nd edition):
* p 38 - placement is ok (the structure of Beleriand is shown in shadow under the water, so you can see it essentially aligns with where the Stone of the Hapless was located)
* p 41 ok - pretty much reflects the same geography as p. 38
* p 52 - Tol Morwen is much too far south
I think everyone is working off the same base legendarium and thus there are obviously a lot of similarities, but I don't think there is firm connection (other than the erstwhile compass rose
) 
The researchers have either read UT, HoME, etc, or they haven't. I think it would be natural for them, if doing map reveals, to have Fonstad's book in hand though.
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