1 Mar, 2022
(edited)
2022-3-1 1:22:28 PM UTC
Edited by zionius on 2022-3-1 3:10:38 PM UTC
Edited by zionius on 2022-3-1 3:21:29 PM UTC
Edited by zionius on 2022-3-1 3:21:29 PM UTC
2022-3-1 1:22:28 PM UTC
I also wonder how the following items are dated:
I.2.1 Hobbit early manuscript, August 1930 (Marquette – MS. Tolkien 1/1/1/3a) – p. 298
I.2.3 Hobbit title page 1930 (Marquette – MS. Tolkien 1/1/1/1a) – p. 298
I.4.23 Manuscript of The Hobbit, dwarves arrive at Bag-End, chapter 1, late 1920s (Marquette- MS. Tolkien 1/1/27/4a) – p. 299
I.2.1 seems too accurate, and I.4.23 should be later than 1930?
Also II.4.14 is TAI #546, reproduced in Maker p.213 fig.82, where the title reading is given as ‘i glin grandin a Dol Erethrin Airi’, which is the same as PE13/93.
I.2.1 Hobbit early manuscript, August 1930 (Marquette – MS. Tolkien 1/1/1/3a) – p. 298
I.2.3 Hobbit title page 1930 (Marquette – MS. Tolkien 1/1/1/1a) – p. 298
I.4.23 Manuscript of The Hobbit, dwarves arrive at Bag-End, chapter 1, late 1920s (Marquette- MS. Tolkien 1/1/27/4a) – p. 299
I.2.1 seems too accurate, and I.4.23 should be later than 1930?
Also II.4.14 is TAI #546, reproduced in Maker p.213 fig.82, where the title reading is given as ‘i glin grandin a Dol Erethrin Airi’, which is the same as PE13/93.
Elendil wrote:
Hello Urulókë,
I answer here as it doesn't seem possible to answer to your article "Tolkien: Voyage en Terre du Milieu Exhibition Map and Guide". https://www.tolkienguide.com/modules/w ... ge=BnF%20Exhibition%20Map
In section "I.3 – Land of the Elves", you describe item 15 "Basic consonant system" as follows: "around 1966-67 [catalog incorrectly says end of 1930s] (Private Collection) – p. 298"
Would you mind letting me know where this datation "around 1966-67" comes from? If the catalog is wrong here, I am the one responsible, as this piece of Eldarin grammar appears to be unpublished (it certainly doesn't come from PE 18 or PE 19 texts), and I had to try determining its date based on its content. The use of j for [j] instead of the usual y appeared to point towards 1937, when Tolkien wrote The Etymologies and used this specific convention for what seems to be a brief period of time. Later published phonologic tables don't use j anymore.
Of course, my estimate might have been wrong, as I don't have access to Tolkien's unpublished archives on his invented languages. If you have a reliable source on the datation of this manuscript, I would definitely look forward to ask the publisher to correct the description in case the book is reprinted.
Best regards,
E.
At the time I made that page, I had a lengthy conversation with Christopher Gilson about the "Basic Consonant System". He thinks the page dates from 1966 or 1967 as part of a projected revision of the Quenya Phonology (see I.3 item 16), but acknowledges that is an inference and not certain. He also says that he is fine explaining his reasoning to you directly.
zionius wrote:
I also wonder how the following items are dated:
I.2.1 Hobbit early manuscript, August 1930 (Marquette – MS. Tolkien 1/1/1/3a) – p. 298
I.2.3 Hobbit title page 1930 (Marquette – MS. Tolkien 1/1/1/1a) – p. 298
I.4.23 Manuscript of The Hobbit, dwarves arrive at Bag-End, chapter 1, late 1920s (Marquette- MS. Tolkien 1/1/27/4a) – p. 299
I.2.1 seems too accurate, and I.4.23 should be later than 1930?
Also II.4.14 is TAI #546, reproduced in Maker p.213 fig.82, where the title reading is given as ‘i glin grandin a Dol Erethrin Airi’, which is the same as PE13/93.
The dates for the three items you list come straight from the BnF exhibition catalogue, based on information provided by Marquette. There have been errors that crept in for other entries, so it is possible that happened here too. I'm following up with Marquette for some additional information.
Thanks for the additional information on II.4.14 - I had missed that! I've updated the entry and corrected the spelling of the title of the piece. The plaque in the exhibit had the title spelled as I originally had it, thus I didn't realize it was the same piece as the MoMe at the time.
According to Christopher Gilson answer, the document "Basic consonant system" is indeed almost certainly from c. 1966-1967. I'll ask the publisher for a correction in future printings.
Elendil wrote:
According to Christopher Gilson answer, the document "Basic consonant system" is indeed almost certainly from c. 1966-1967. I'll ask the publisher for a correction in future printings.
Sounds good! I definitely deferred to his expertise and knowledge of the context around the document as well.
zionius wrote:
I also wonder how the following items are dated:
I.2.1 Hobbit early manuscript, August 1930 (Marquette – MS. Tolkien 1/1/1/3a) – p. 298
I.2.3 Hobbit title page 1930 (Marquette – MS. Tolkien 1/1/1/1a) – p. 298
I.4.23 Manuscript of The Hobbit, dwarves arrive at Bag-End, chapter 1, late 1920s (Marquette- MS. Tolkien 1/1/27/4a) – p. 299
I.2.1 seems too accurate, and I.4.23 should be later than 1930?
I've checked with Marquette, my exhibition notes, and the BnF catalogue. Here is what the guide page now says:
- Hobbit early manuscript, ?Early 1930s (Marquette – MS. Tolkien 1/1/1/3a) – p. 298 – [not reproduced] [Note: The exhibition plaque dated this "Août 1930" (August 1930), the BnF catalogue dates it "début 1930" ("early 1930"). Marquette dates it as stated here.]
- Hobbit title page 1930s (Marquette – MS. Tolkien 1/1/1/1a) – p. 298 – [not reproduced] [Note: The exhibition plaque dated this "1930". The BnF catalogue dates it "années 1930" (1930s) as does Marquette.]
- Manuscript of The Hobbit, dwarves arrive at Bag-End, chapter 1, ?Late 1920s (Marquette- MS. Tolkien 1/1/27/4a) – p. 299 – [not reproduced] [Note: The BnF catalogue states "fin des années 1920" (late 1920s) while Marquette is not as certain, thus their use of the question mark]
Thanks zionius for the nudge to get these corrected!
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